With Carolyn Freyer-Jones

Full Transcript

Michael Balchan  00:00

Sometimes we play a game. Who's going to be first, Kimmy? What's up, Kimmy? Great to see you, Vicky. Great to see you, Kevin. That mustache, dude. I'm loving it. Nice work, Paul. Great to see you, Anthony. The man, the myth, the legend. Fired up. I know some more folks will be coming in, joining us, but we have an extraordinary guest today, Carolyn Freyer Jones, world class coach. You run a coaching school author. New books coming out. When's it? When's

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  00:27

the the next one's a little bit longer. The the total coaching success book was the last one, and then there was the one I wrote with my business partner Michelle. The next one's still in the mix.

Michael Balchan  00:38

Okay, still thinking about it. I was celebrating you before we went live. Just the impact you've had on me as a coach, on the coaching ecosystem as a whole. I know you taught University of Santa Monica spiritual psychology, really drove that forward in many ways, and you've just done so many things for the field at large. And we just feel so blessed to get to connect, to get to unpack some of that wisdom, and you know, try and show up, live fuller lives for ourselves, more creativity for our families, for our clients. Those of us that are blessed to work as professional coaches or to use coaching skills in our businesses with our teams, etc. So, really looking forward to today.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  01:16

I'm thrilled to be here. So, I just I'm looking forward to connecting with you, Michael, and with everybody, I'm excited. I love to talk to communities of coaches and people who utilize coaching in their lives. So, game on!

Michael Balchan  01:30

Beautiful. So, I like to start somewhat personal, and that you've gotten a lot of coaching. Like you've been in this space for a long time. What are some of the things about the coaching you've received that have had the biggest impact on your life.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  01:45

It's a good question. So, in case for people who don't know, Steve Chandler has been my longest running coach. So, Steve Chandler is still my coach. He's been my coach for 18 plus years. I've paid him lots and lots of money to help me in every area of my life, right? So he's been in my life when I left my job at the University of Santa Monica when I was the head of admissions and marketing and went full time coaching. He was my coach when I had my daughter. He was my coach when my business partner and best friend Michelle Bauman became gravely ill and ultimately died, and I didn't know what I was going to do with my work because so much of our work was together, and that's who I launched my career as a coach with. I mean, he's been my coach through all the big ones, including literally just last week I dropped my daughter off at college, and he's been my coach since he was born. So that's a big deal. And then I, you know, there's so many moments that Steve has helped me with in my business that I wasn't expecting. I mean, there were some bumps, including the person I did all my joint work with dying was not a small one, but also other things, right? So I can't say enough about the impact of having someone in that way in my life for that long. And then I also work with other coaches. Some of you may know Nancy Klein, who does the thinking environment work. That's really big in Europe and in the United States, and we use some of her work in my school, and I love Nancy Klein because her work is all about the person being coached, not the coach. I love her work because it requires us as a coach to not speak at all. One of her favorite statements, which I love, is that when we're coaches, how do we know that what we're about to say? How do we know that what we're about to say is more important than what the person is about to think? We don't, right? We can't know. So she's all about the person who asks the question has the answers. So I do regular thinking sessions of my own with Nancy Klein, and that's some of the most rigorous work I do. And as I was preparing to take my daughter to college, I was in full getting coached mode by Steve, by Nancy Klein, by Dr. Mary Holmick, who was the chief academic officer at the University of Santa Monica. All my current coaches are over 80 years old. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. So I kind of joke that I'm in the get them before they die tour. Now I don't want them to die. I don't want them to leave. And you know, it's a. I might have to get some younger coaches.

Michael Balchan  04:38

Wisdom comes in in many packages, I want to go back on a lot of different pieces. But you said I had a thinking session with Nancy Klein. I love more time to think, right? I think you've you've been a big proponent of her work and that that framework for a long time. But I got coaching sessions with Steve. I've got thinking sessions with Nancy. Tell me about a thinking session. What is it? What is it? What is it like to go into that? And how are you? Are you preparing differently? What What's your kind of container there?

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  05:09

It's so rigorous. It's so rigorous, Michael. It's like the most uncomfortable work I do because literally every thinking session starts with the same question: What would you like to think about and what are your thoughts, and then a thinking environment practitioner literally does not speak until the thinker gives permission. So I'm doing it with Nancy Klein, who created the model, right? So I'm always joking with her that like I don't want her to think my thinking is I'm judging my thinking before it comes out of my mouth. I'm like, oh, will Nancy think that my thinking is lazy thinking or not adequate thinking? So before a thinking session, I'm both honing in on what do I want to use the time for, and I'm judging, I'm prejudging the quality of my thoughts, which becomes part of the session.

Michael Balchan  06:06

How often is she speaking?

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  06:10

So she only speaks if I give permission in the thinking model. Right, I literally have to say I'm done, and then she will ask the next question. So I could use the entire session from that one question. What would you like to think about, and what are your thoughts? I could use the whole time.

Michael Balchan  06:30

And and for for you know, I know a lot of folks going into the coaching space, right? There's this desire to add. Oh, I've got a lot of things I can say that may be more valuable in what they are thinking, right? And the idea of wait, so you you've got the person who's who's I'm sure one of the most highest paid per rate hour folks in this space, and you go and you and you ask answer the question, and then you're just thinking, and what that's that's kind of crazy. Now there are alternate perspectives that like actually truly get that, and we had Michael Neal and talked about the the lamppost and the power of that, and holding space and holding space and and being a witness to someone is is incredibly powerful. But for someone who's maybe newer and is like, hang on, Carolyn, you're you're telling me you go there and you pay this person lots of money, and they don't talk until you give them permission, and they then they're silent again for a long time. Like, how does that work?

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  07:24

It's hilarious, right? And one of the things I love about it is it puts the onus on me as the thinker, as the client, to generate. Like sometimes I'm in silence. I don't have to even think out loud. What's amazing about a thinking session? You can be silent, and really the job of Nancy or any thinking environment practitioner is to be a non-judgmental, loving battery. And for many people who are in high-level roles, CEOs, leaders, etc. they do not have enough time to think on their own. They do not have anyone who sits with them and just is a loving battery without judgment. So now remember, I'm not a thinking practitioner coach. I just want to be clear. I, Michelle, and I, when we first studied and worked with Nancy, we were both like, "We're going to do this. We're going to become thinking environment practitioners. And then Michelle was like, "You know, I don't think I can do it. Like, I think I, I think I like the sound of my voice too much, and we both laughed and laughed. Right? It was like I think there's value in exchange coaching, which is what we do. Like you say something and then I say something, but I think there's profound value in learning how to be more quiet, in learning how to allow a client or a potential client to have more space to do their own thinking because, as Nancy Klein says, we are becoming a think for society. Right? It's like, oh, Michael, tell me what you think of what I think. Tell me what you think of my thoughts and the opportunity. Right? We see it all over social media. It's like, no, no. I want to. I want to help my clients become self-reliant and resilient, and not looking to me for validation.

Michael Balchan  09:09

Becoming a think for it-I don't even know. Let me let me see what AI thinks. AI will tell me what I think, right? 

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  09:17

Well, there you go.

Michael Balchan  09:19

Non-judgmental, and we'll get off of the thinking space, but the non-judgmental loving battery, right? Those those those feel very deliberately chosen words. And in our program, we talk about the big three of coaching: presence, power, and warmth, right? And and to me, there's there's a there's a coach for like non-judgmental loving battery. I've got goodwill. I've got that warmth towards towards somebody. I'm I'm whether it's a loving battery, a battery of love, or just an energetic like I'm able to carry emotionally the energy of this space. I've got the power to to to show up, and then that that non judgmental presence. You're you're good. I'm good. Loving what is Byron Katie like. We're just exploring this together, and it just feels like a a beautiful container to be able to you know explore one's thoughts and then and then see those thoughts come up and then you've got the the exchange coaching right which is one of the things that's come up so often in all the conversations all the time we do is like the only wrong way to coach is figuring out someone else's way to coach, right? And and to be in relationship, maybe the thinking space is for you. Maybe it's a it's more of a training, consulting. Maybe it's a question. But but being able to find what is most authentic and true and show up in the relationship. That's like, look, there's lots of ways to do things. I don't know what your right ways, but I know that I'm at least not going to do someone else's way. I'm going to do my way, and then hopefully give you the permission to figure it out and and have that process going forward.  So, if that's kind of a pillar of of the coaching space, and we've got again thinking, questioning all these kind of things. What are some other you think pillars of what makes a great coach show up in this space and really, really allow the client to experience the value that's that's you know aware and present in the relationship.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  11:11

You know, it's a big question. I think that to me, the greatest coaching occurs when there's deep rapport and trust, and I think the greatest coaching tends to occur over time, right? Like I've had beautiful one-off sessions, but the biggest impact I've had with clients is when I am working with them for six months, a year, two years, five years, etc. You know, I think that we are in a relationship building business, right? So, you know, I joke with the coaches who come to my school are coming for a very different reason. They're coming to learn how to build their businesses in real time. That's the that's the school I have, right? And I joke with them. I'm like, you can be the greatest coach on the planet, but without a client, it's not going to mean a whole lot, right? So to me, some of the most beautiful and important conversations happen early. They happen in enrollment. They happen when we are willing to really like connect and ask questions that nobody else may have ever been willing to ask. And I don't mean that in an aggressive way. I mean that in a intimate way. I mean that in a way that's depthful and in a way that really demonstrates that we see someone and that we're listening.

Michael Balchan  12:32

And what are some of those pillars then of building a business? Right, some relationship business. We have to be in relationship. We got to be able to have conversations and you know have more conversations, right? Like show me your calendar. But what does it look like?

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  12:50

I mean, that's it. I mean, you know, we play a game in my school called "Show Me Your Calendar, and I mean that. Coaches literally, whether we do hybrids, so some are in the room, some are on Zoom, and I'm like, put it up, and we all look at different coaches' calendars, and it's really easy for me to go. Oh, I see what's happening, right? I see when someone is making other things a priority over getting conversations on their calendar. I see when someone is doing way too much connecting and not enough creating longer conversations, right? So yes, to me the key, and this is Steve Chandler, right? So Steve Chandler is where I learned, and I learned from the best of the best, right? Slowing down and connecting and serving without attachment is the way to build an incredibly beautiful business, and it takes it takes real learning how to do that without attachment, right? Not getting grabby or needy or making any communication that I'm sending you, Michael, about me, right? So to me, the thing that I don't think many coaches, including me, knew before I became a coach is like we have to actually know how to communicate, and I don't know that many coaches think about that, right? Like, oh, I actually have to write an email or send a text or send a direct message. And I think most of us didn't really know that at the start. We just wanted to coach, right? We wanted to be in coaching people, and it all starts with like the beginning of a relationship. Even if we get referrals, there is an exchange, and how we do those exchanges really matters.

Michael Balchan  14:24

Let's stay with enrollment. I want to come back to to communication and just unpack that more. But you talked about you're doing too much connecting, not enough creating deep space, right? Like I actually go deep with someone, and then at some point it goes from being, you know, I'm meeting people, I'm serving them, and then I'm offering, you know, an ongoing relationship. And one of the questions we get a lot is like, when is the right time to go from I'm having a chat, I feel like it's great, they think it's great, da da da da. They're not, you know, what does this look like? But I'm, I'm actually making that proposal. What when is the right time, and how does someone know? Okay, this is you know how does it often get framed up is like there's a what are my limits what are my boundaries I feel like I don't have the right boundaries to go from this is cool when they're getting coaching for free but actually this is what I do professionally and right what's that transition look like

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  15:12

yeah it's a really good question so I think it's really important as coaches whether we're at the beginning which is when most of us are like how do I ask and what do I do? And it's like I I think it's important to know how to set context, right? So if I'm connecting with someone and then I'm going to offer them a conversation, I'm going to put some context on it, right? So if I Michael have met you at a party and you start talking about I don't know a challenge you're having at work, and I say, hey, look, I know we're just at a party. This feels kind of weird, but I talk to people about this stuff all day long. If you ever want to have a conversation about this, we totally can. And this is my gift: no strings, right? I'm going to do it really casually. I'm going to do it really warmly. It's going to have warmth, and there's going to be permission to say no. Now, let's say they say yes, like, "Oh, you do? You talk to people about leadership stuff all day long. Yeah, I do. Let's get out our phones. Let's set up a time, and I talk to them. My goal in that first conversation is always going to be at least once or twice to move the needle to to have something occur for them where they go, "Oh my, wow, I never thought of that, or "Oh wow, I didn't I didn't see that. Thank you. Right, some way, and then I'm going to offer another conversation. So I want to give everyone a news flash. I'm going to say something that might be really radical, and you all might be like, "Wait, she's crazy. I'm not crazy. This is how I built my business. This is how many coaches build their business. I will talk to someone three or four times for 90 minutes at a time before I ever talk about working with me formally, and as my fees go up, that matters even more. So 90 minutes, sometimes two hours, three or four times. I have a there's a person on faculty at my school. She's fabulous. Her name is Lisa Husaini. She'll sometimes do 567, She's like, I'll talk to someone for as long as I'm enjoying it, as long as I'm enjoying it. Now I do three or four times, and what I'll do is at the beginning of that third or fourth conversation, I'll say something like, "So listen, we've had this will be our third conversation. Today will be our last time talking, unless you want to talk about working together formally, and it's totally fine if you don't want to, or we can talk more at the end about what it would be look what it would look like if we were going to continue. And then they look at me with googly eyes and they go, "Thanks, this was great. See you later. It just all depends, right? It's like it depends on how much impact there was in the conversations. It depends on how many seeds I've planted around what could occur if we were to do this ongoing. There's so many variables, and I love that. I love that enrollment is as much of an art as coaching

Michael Balchan  18:02

is, and that that proper context set, right? And it's not a surprise you you you you've teed it up. You've there. They know what they're. Was it sell the experience of coaching, right? Like you can't you can't sell the idea of coaching. You got to actually deliver the experience of coaching.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  18:16

And it depends. Sometimes I'll say to someone, "Hey, we're going to talk three or four times, and we may never talk again, and that's just fine. Or we might decide at the end of three or four conversations we're going to talk about what it would look like to work together. And I don't know the answer yet.

Michael Balchan  18:30

There's also a disarming that happens when it is me going in. Like I don't know what we're going to be the coach. Like she said, this is on her, but like, what does that mean? Is the next one not? Like, there's a disarming that goes like, okay, cool. Like, I understand the can the conditions, the constraints of how we're working here, and that gives me the freedom to show up and not wonder. Like, is it the next one? She didn't ask me. She asked me to pay for these. Like, how's this? How's this work?

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  18:52

Agreed. Agreed. I think that can really put people off, and it can make them uncomfortable. And our job is to help them relax.

Michael Balchan  19:01

So let's go back then to communication. Oh, we got to get really good at communication, and also as part of communication, this is a relationship business. Like meeting people, right? Communication starts with that first, like hi, oh cool, in a shared environment. How do you think about meeting folks? Like okay, awesome. It might be nice for Carolyn. She can do three or four sessions. She's probably got a whole bunch of people that are waiting to talk to her. I don't have anyone to talk to. And then, what does communication look like? Should I be just trusting myself? Do I reread my text? How do I know when I'm talking about myself versus about them and the whole spectrum? The

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  19:37

whole spectrum. So let's talk about the idea when you don't have like people who think I have imaginary people waiting to talk to me, which you know, by the way, is sometimes true and sometimes it's not true. I'm like everyone else. Like, oh wow, I need to get out and have some conversations. So one of the things I think that's a challenge for many coaches these days is they are not getting out. Period. I mean, true. To Preston, who I think many of you met, who's also on faculty at my school. One of the things I love about Terita is Terita is willing to get out in the world and connect with people. So I will share some of the ways she does it. I'll share some of the ways I've done it. I met many of my early clients at the gym. I was a CrossFitter for 10 years, and many of my clients came from the gym because that's where I hung out. Right, so Steve Chandler once I said like Michelle was my business partner was like, "Don't ever stop CrossFitting because we get so many of our clients from there. And Steve Chandler was like, "Newsflash, Carolyn, if you hung out at the library, you'd get clients at the library because that's where you are. So Tereta Preston joined a tennis club because she loves tennis. She's had a lot of her clients come from there. I mean, mine was the gym. I've met clients at my kid's school because I spent a lot of time there at various parent meetings. Right? It's like we have so many natural places we go that we can then start to connect. Now, if you're a coach who like hunkers down in their house and you really don't have community, then your number one job is I have to build community. That means either I need to join some virtual communities of things I love, whether it's a craft or I have a coach who is learning to speak Korean. That's what she's doing because she loves BTS. She is a BTS lunatic. If you don't know BTS, someone will put it in the chat and tell you what they are. She is a BTS lunatic. But guess what? She's created clients from this experience, right? She went and traveled with people she met via learning to speak Korean. She's going to see. She saw BTS yesterday, so she's creating clients from something she loves. That's a really important key. Are you getting out there and putting yourself in environments of things you want to do? I don't care if it's knitting, right? It's like, what are the things you love to do? And if you don't love to do a lot, you got to look at that. If you like, oh, I'm afraid, you got to look at that.

Michael Balchan  22:11

And then if we are going out and doing things, there's a difference between like we're learning Korean together, we're knitting together, we're whatever it is. We're at the BTS concert, and hey, I actually have conversations like this all day long. Like, I'd love to have the chat. What is what are the early relationship stages that, particularly, is like I can make a lot of great friends, right? And then I was like, oh, I don't want to. They're my friend. They can never be my client. Like, how?

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  22:40

You know, I think it takes slowing down because I can be in an environment where I'm meeting people. Let's say I'm learning Korean. Let's use that as an example, and I'm going to really make a decision.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  22:53

Look at you! Nice job. So let's say I'm in an environment like that, I'm going to make a distinction that I'm not doing this. I might end up making friends, but I want to be really clear. I'm listening for where I might be able to serve someone, right? So I'm out there being curious. I'm out there like, okay, I'm I'm at this parent meeting. Tell me, tell me about you. What are you up to in the world? Oh, really? That's so interesting. And by the way, if you're wondering, like, oh, it's weird. It's not. People love to be asked questions, right? They love it when people are curious because, quite frankly, curiosity is dying. I cannot tell you how many places I go. Just having dropped my daughter off at college, I met a bunch of other parents. My husband and I were one of the few people asking the other parents, "Well, where are you from? What are you up to? Very few people. I don't think one person asked me what I do or or anything about me. Right? Curiosity is dying. We, as a profession, can be the people who are curious out in the world. That alone is a service. Whether or not we get a client, who cares? Let's be people who want to ask people questions about themselves, just so someone walks away feeling a little more seen.

Michael Balchan  24:16

So you're setting the intention of I want to be curious. I'm going in there. I'm not necessarily going to to make friends, but I'm going to listen for folks that I can, yeah, serve right to help,

Carolyn Freyer Jones  24:26

right.

Michael Balchan  24:26

And then, at what point is it the transition into conversation,

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  24:32

right? So I'll give you an example. So when I we were dropping our daughter off, we said we went to this parent thing, and we were hanging out with this couple who are from Texas, and one and the guy is an entrepreneur, and he has three different companies, right? And the three companies were prosthetics, vodka, and pecans. So you walk into a bar and you meet someone who owns a business. Three businesses: prosthetics, vodka, and pecans. And I was like, "Well, you got to tell me more. Like, what? How do you become someone who owns those three businesses? And he just started to share. Now, I wasn't looking to create a client. I was. I could have, if I really wanted to. I was a little more focused on. I'm about to go say goodbye to my daughter. I might be a waterworks any moment. But for now I'm going to be curious. So I started asking him questions, and I was like, "What's the one that's the most challenging? And he's like, "Right now, the prosthetics business is really challenging because there's all these regulatory laws that are coming in that are the margins are almost nothing. And I'm like, "Wow, that's got to be tough. He's like, "Yeah, it's a family business. It's been I've been doing like my dad. This is 45 to 65 years old now. If I had really wanted to, I might have said something like, "That's interesting, and I might have shared a client story. I might have go, "You know what? I have another client who's an entrepreneur like you. He has two businesses, and one of the biggest challenges he's had is learning how to create new things within the business that really serve people, right? I might have shared a client story. I might have shared one thing, one thing, and then I would have gone back to another question for him. Client stories are magic, and I always say to coaches, and they don't even have to be different ones. I used to share the same client story over and over and over again. Who cares? Who cares? Right? No, they're not going to know that I just shared it with the different person down the block. So, client stories are magic.

Michael Balchan  26:36

How do you how do you collect and keep track of your client stories?

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  26:40

I have no special system, Michael. Other than I just share the ones that come to mind. I use my intuition. I mean, you know, I don't. And also, I want for anyone who's newer, you are a client story. So your own stories really matter, right? All of our stories matter, and our client stories matter. So my intuition, like I used to do this thing when I would go out to to be at environments where I wanted to create a client, and my my my commitment. Michelle and I would each do this. We're like, we're going to share at least three client stories, and we're going to have at least three distinct conversations. That's it. I don't need to meet 20 people. I'm going to meet three people. I'm gonna have three different conversations, and I will share three distinct client stories. And then I just be like, which I'd be in the conversation with you, and I'd be like, which 1am I gonna share? Which 1am I gonna share? Oh, and I sometimes it seemed so random, and they would be like, oh wow, that's so interesting. I have someone who's doing X, Y, Z that's similar. So I just pull them up. I don't have, and some people have like Google Docs and all the organization. That's great if you need that. My system is intuition based.

Michael Balchan  27:50

Trust that intuition. Let's go back to then communication. You talked about emails. You talked about text messages. Those kind of things, and making sure that the the the messages weren't about you, right? And the messages have to be about the client. That sounds easier to talk about than to actually do. What was the process look like to to hone your skills of communication?

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  28:14

Yeah, it's a good question. So, do I have permission to be radical here with everybody? Is that okay?

Michael Balchan  28:19

Yeah. Okay.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  28:19

All right, so most of us, if not all, are doing this really badly, like badly. And I say that because I was doing it badly, so I'm not like different. I mean badly. So remember, I was trained by Steve Chandler. So let me give you an early picture of what this looked like. So in our agreement for our coaching, any email or text that I was going to send, and Michelle, we had a joint agreement. I would see the emails that she was sending, and I would see Steve's coaching back, and then she could see mine. Even though he coached us individually, he also coached us as a team. So I got to see her communications and what he said. Now we sent him every communication before we sent it out, which took incredible restraint, because if the urgency was in me, I just wanted to hit send, and whenever I did that, it was bad, bad idea, because I would then send it to Steve, and he would write back, and he would say, "Why are you sending this to me now when you've already sent it to the person, and I was like, "Well, I thought it was good, or how is it? Just tell me. And he go, "Read your email. Who's the one who wants something? Read your email. Who's the one who wants something? Most of us are, without knowing centering ourselves in our communication. So that means, and this is a way you can test it. When you send an email or a text, see how many times you start sentences with I or me. How many times do you start your sentences with I or me? How many? How much acknowledgment? Are you doing in your communications? How much acknowledgement are you doing of someone? How much are you saying anything about them? Many coaches, when we're new, we're talking about our coaching. We're talking about what we do in our communications, and we don't know. It's but we're just it occurs as salesy, right? It just does, and we just don't know it. And I didn't know it. Like Steve Chandler was like, and we, Michelle and I would laugh. Like she'd send an email and she'd text me and she'd be like, "I think this one's really good. And then we'd wait, and he'd go four sentences in the middle. It sounds like you are attempting to sell. Do you see this? And I'd be like, and she'd go, "Oh no, I didn't see it. Right? Like, so our communications-we want to be real. We're not trying to be like robots. And I always say this: Can you run stuff through AI? You absolutely can. I don't recommend it because there's something, and maybe this will change, but there's like a sheen that gets put on our communications when we run it through AI. It's like a sheen that I can't quite. It's like I can feel it, I can't see it, but there's something there. Whereas when I generate my own communication, it is from my heart. I'm thinking about the person. I'm putting together something where when they receive it, they go, "Oh, she really, she really was spent some time thinking about me. I want my communications when I'm inviting someone into a conversation or I'm following up after an enrollment conversation to occur like, "Wow, this person saw me, and this is 100% about me. So we do. I do tons of this stuff. I mean, if I told you how many communications I look at usually on a daily basis from coaches and then give them coaching, I I um I don't know. I could have done a whole business just doing that. I didn't, but I could have.

Michael Balchan  31:59

So so having somebody who's able to take a different perspective on the language that you're using and how, and bring attention to the energetics of the conversation-who are you actually writing for, how it reads to somebody else-and getting that feedback from someone who's got that experience-that then helps you get more reps, more reps, more reps, more reps.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  32:19

I mean, texting, which, in by the way, like so many of us are texting now, prospective clients, etc. Texting, it's all the same. Texting, direct message, email, those are all critical in our work as we develop ourselves as professional coaches, right? Because a lot of us are doing it without thinking about it, and then we're like getting grabby right at the end of a text. Like, you know, so many times someone's in the middle of an enrollment process, and they're like, they didn't respond to my last communication. And before they give it time, they're texting them again, and they're like, and I'm like, whoa, let's slow it down, let's slow it down, let's remember that people have really full lives. They have kids in school. They have sick parents. They're not like not all of us are looking at our phones 100% of the time.

Michael Balchan  33:11

What are some of the phrases that get used a lot? That's the like the grabby at the end of the text that you're like, oh, that's like it feels harmless if I'm sending it out. Like I'm never gonna think, but but actually on the receiver's end, it's the like. Well, that doesn't. There's something weird about that. What are some of those common?

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  33:30

I mean, it's all of it. Like any time we're like, so let me know if you're still thinking about coaching, right? Let me know right at the end, right? Like oh, it's just like oh, it's just if we can start to send communications that do like once we're in a relationship with someone, I want to be thinking about well, what can I send Michael that might be valuable to him based on that first conversation we had about his brother and the challenges they're having? I'm like, what can I send him? And I'm like, okay, I'm going to send him this article that I have, and I'm going to send it to you, Michael. I'm going to say, hey, Michael, I was thinking about you and your brother and what's happening. This article could be really valuable. Let me know what you think about it. I am not saying, and when we talk in our next conversation, we'll talk more about what would happen if we work together on this, I'm not doing that, right? I'm like, nope. Take all that stuff out. Just serve, right? If I have another conversation with you on the calendar, it's already there. I don't need to like. Sometimes coaches will be like, and when we talk next Wednesday, we're gonna do this, this, and this, and I'm like, pull it out. You sound like you're trying really hard. You sound like you're trying really hard. Just slow it down. Send them something that would serve, and be like, "We'll look. Tell me what you think of the article. We'll talk about it in our next conversation. Less is more.

Michael Balchan  34:57

Is there a. Particular relationship or type of relationship that you encourage people to think about. Like, how would you say this if you were saying it to like you know grandma or partner or whatever? Is there a good?

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  35:10

I think a good reference point is how would you want to be spoken to? Like, how would I want someone to write to me? Right. Like, I can tell you, Steve was and still is the master at this. Right. That guy, when I first started interacting with him, and he would email me, there was he just would send me. He sent me so many resources. He sent me books in the mail. He sent me articles. He sent me videos. This was all before I paid him any money, right? He was like, "Hey, I know you're having this challenge with your boss. Check out this video, or I saw this article and it sounded like you. I think you have a lot to offer in this category. Take a look at it. I mean, it was wild. I had never in my life been served in that way, ever. So I always say to a coach, "Hey, would you like to receive this? How would that feel? And most of the time, the coach would be like, "No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't like this. And I'm like, "Yeah. So, like, let's just strip it out and make it more human, and let's like make it more connecting and more have more warmth to use one of your pillars and have it serve more. Like, am I willing to serve all day long, never knowing who's actually going to pay me. Am I willing to serve all day long? One

Michael Balchan  36:28

of the things we talk about in that service too, like never knowing, never knowing who's going to pay me, is is you're not serving to try and get an individual as a client. You're you're trying to serve a broader ecosystem and trust that when someone is looking for a client. If you've served enough folks, and they say, "Oh, you know, you got to go talk to Carolyn because because she's amazing at this. And you serve the group through one person, but you don't expect the person that you're serving to be the one that's coming back for

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  36:54

that's right

Michael Balchan  36:55

a relationship.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  36:56

We want to become trusted sources of transformation wherever we go. We want to become trusted sources of transformation, and we want to learn how to build relationship in a way that feels good to the other person. Never knowing whether or not they're ever going to pay us a dime. Like I don't ever want to be thinking about that. I'm not saying I didn't have to practice that. By the way, I had to consciously practice when I needed money to not to put that outside the room of wherever I went of any conversation. As Steve Chandler would say, I may need money, but I don't need that person's money, right? So I'm not trying to deny that sometimes we do need money. That's real, but we don't want to be bringing that or leaking that into our connections, our conversations, our communications, and that takes practice. We have to start to learn how to see it when we're doing

Michael Balchan  37:50

1. Let's go back to getting coached. I'm curious of you've got Steve, 18 years going strong. You've got Nancy. You've got the the doctor. I'm sure you've had other folks that have come in and out one session, many sessions, etc. How do you prepare for the sessions? Is it the same for different kinds of coaches? Are you are you capturing little things throughout the you know the week? Are you setting aside time before the session writes up down? You just show up and let it rip. Like, how do you get the most out of those relationships? Yeah,

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  38:17

I mean, with Steve, I always have an agenda, right? Because Steve is my everything coach, right? So that means I'm going to talk to him about my business. I'm going to talk to him about I just dropped my daughter off at college, and what what do we do now with all this available time? I mean, I'm joking, but I'm not. I'm going to talk to him about everything, everything, and I'm going to bring an agenda. So, like, I have a session with him this Friday, and I'm going to have an agenda. Like I got stuff to talk to him about. I have a couple client things I want to talk to him about. I have a client who's facing something really unusual, and I want to go over that with him. And then I have some business stuff I want to talk with him about, and I have what's happening in my home. And so I will create an agenda, and that's like a running agenda. So I usually know that. With Nancy Klein, it's a different experience, right? It's like, what do I want to think about, and what are my thoughts? That is like a starting point. I'll bring one thing I want to think about, but that could go anywhere, right? Because that's a much, it's a, it's just a different process. So all I focus on is, and that might not be till the morning of, because I'm getting so nervous, like I should have something to think about, right? But Nancy Klein says you could think about the color of your next garbage can, like it does not have to be this profound thing, right? It's like me just having time to think about my thoughts is is of value, and then with Dr. Mary Hulnick, who is one of the co-creators of the principles and practices of spiritual psychology. A lot of times, I'm gonna the conversation is gonna be more about my spiritual practice or what's what I'm noticing. So, so I I might not have like a full on agenda, but I have a couple things. And because Dr. Mary Hulnick and her husband started the University of Santa Monica, some. Sometimes I'll talk to her about some of the unique things that come with having a school that only a few people can really relate to, right? Because having a school is a different segment of my business that not a lot of people can relate to. That it's helpful to talk to someone about.

Michael Balchan  40:18

How about after the sessions, what are you doing to cool? The session's great, and then I go on, or is there is there a deliberate practice of I committed this to this, this to this, this, this? What's your like post session? Well,

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  40:30

besides wiping my eyes, depending on how many tears I cried, there's it depends, right? With Steve, there might be some real action, right? I'm gonna talk to so and so about this thing I want to bring into the school, or it might be very very specific, but it's not like none of the coaches I work with are accountability coaches, right? I don't want that. They don't want to do that. I've reached a place where I'm like, I know what I need to do. You know, with Dr. Mary Helmick, there might be an inner process she suggested, so that might be okay. When am I going to do that thing that she talked about, but there's not a lot of like I don't take notes. I I don't do that. It's not. It's just not how I'm built. So I I know what I need to do after a session, and and I some most of the time I do it, and then sometimes I ignore it, and then it comes up again in the next session, and they go, didn't did you do the thing? And I go, no. In fact, I did not,

Michael Balchan  41:22

and so no notes, no note takers, no like. What do we talk about? Let me capture the big insights.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  41:28

Nope, because a big insight is going to live in me. I don't need. I mean, once in a great while with Nancy Klein, it's a little bit different because some of that work can end up in what she calls an incisive question, and there's a point at which, in a thinking session, she might say, "Do you want to write this down? And then I do, because that's different. But that's a very specific thing. But unless there's something that Steve or Mary says that I'm like, I got to write that down, and I usually know when that is, I'm not generally writing things down.

Michael Balchan  42:01

Beautiful. So we've covered a lot of ground on enrollments, relationship creation, right? Like language to use, communication, getting feedback, how to show up to coaching, the power coaching has had on you, all the different coaches that you're working with. I also want to make sure we we've talked a lot about the University of Santa Monica, right? Spiritual psychology. Your work there. You're working with Dr. Mary Holnick. What is that program? How did it come about? What do you think that the yeah? How do folks think about that?

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  42:39

Well, first of all, I need to say this, right? So, the University of Santa Monica changed my entire life. So much happened for me there that I would not remember. So, just to give you some context, I moved from New York. I'm originally a New Yorker, super cynical, had no real personal growth. I had, you know, I did some therapy in college, which was fantastic. But I was a pretty cynical New Yorker, and then all of a sudden, in my work in Los Angeles, I was doing marketing and graphic design, and I was not happy. I was deeply unhappy, and I thought I was still utilizing my therapist, and I thought, well, maybe I want to do that. I was discovering my family of origin material was infiltrating every area of my life, including my work life, and I thought maybe I want to be a therapist, but I knew that I could not go to a school, a traditional school with a master's program that would like make me want to blow myself up to just sit in classes and be lectured at. So lo and behold, I was reading the Los Angeles Times, avoiding cleaning my house, and there was an article in there that said, "Why do people move from France to Los Angeles. I mean, why would you? Why would you move from Paris, France, to Los Angeles? Right. And one person in the article said, "I moved because it was the only place I knew of that had a master's degree in spiritual psychology. And I was like, "What is that? I need to know what that is. So I I called the university, right? I don't even know if I don't even I don't know if they had a website at the time, but remember, I'm a cynical New Yorker. I'm like, send me a package. They wanted to talk to me, and I was like, no, no, no, I don't talk to people. I'm from New York. Just send me a package because of my background in marketing. I'm like, I will know if you're real, or if you're some sketchy, weird school in a mini mall, I'll know. And I got this incredible package of marketing materials with a catalog, and I was like, "Oh my god, this thing is real! And I sent it to my therapist, and he said to me, "This program looks amazing. And believe it or not, I know someone who knows these people, who knows doctors Ron and Mary Helmick? Go see what this is about. And I was like, really? I don't know. And he's like, go. So I went to an information evening, and it was an incredible information evening. I don't remember a thing they said. Literally, I think I blocked it out because people looked way too happy. People were smiling. People looked happy. They were great. In the room, I was like, "Oh, I don't know. This doesn't feel right. But I went to the back of the room and I said, "How do you apply? And then I got the materials and I applied and I was accepted. And the program was wildly experiential. I'd never done experiential work like that. I'd never done it in a group setting. And spiritual psychology is really all about how do we access greater loving inside of us? So regular psychology deals with physical, mental, emotional. Spiritual psychology is physical, mental, emotional, and it acknowledges a spiritual level that everybody has. It's not religious. It's like we all have souls. We are souls utilizing a human experience? So the program begins with that context, and then they teach tools and skills, and your whole life comes into the program. And my husband ended up going to the University of Santa Monica, not on his bingo card. He works in television. Tons of people show up there having no like they're not going to be a coach, they're not going to be a therapist. Some do, but they really go to have their lives transformed.

Michael Balchan  46:09

And what is it about it that's so transforming?

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  46:14

You know, I could say that some of it is learning from doctors Ron and Mary Helmick because they are extraordinary people and teachers, but the the principles and practices stand on their own. And what I would say is, what's extraordinary about them is that they really bring us back to the experience of unconditional loving for ourselves and others. Now, there's a lot of shedding, right? We all walk around with judgment all day long. One of the biggest things in my coaching work is listening for judgment, and that comes out of my University of Santa Monica education. I'm always listening for judgment from people: judgment of self, judgment of others, judgment of the world. So, as a proud New Yorker, you could say I walked into the University of Santa Monica with just a little bit of judgment about a lot of things.

Michael Balchan  47:03

Phil Stutz has been talking a lot lately about a zone of non-judgment, and and and look, judgments also doesn't have to be negative, right? There's positive judgments that you're making, but any time that you're applying a sheen, applying a like a perspective of judgment, it's it's distancing yourself from what's actually there and what's actually present, and we're

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  47:25

distancing ourselves from our own loving and the loving of another. Right? Look, we're seeing it all over the place. Right? There's so much distancing of ourselves, so much judgment, and I and I would make a distinction. I don't think I don't know about positive judgment, but I know about discernment, right? Like I can be discerning and not judging.

Michael Balchan  47:46

What does that look like? Discernment without judgment.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  47:52

It means that I'm not putting my own overlay on it. Like, oh wow, look at how that person did that. Okay, that might not have been the way I would do it, and I can feel my own judgment come up, like, oh, I'm judging. They shouldn't have done it that way. Like, what were they thinking? And I'm like, oh, now I'm judging. So now I'm making them wrong for how they're doing something versus they're just doing it differently. There's like one of the things that's often talked about at USM is like, how do we step? It's the roomies field. How do we go out beyond right doing and wrong doing. How do we live in a world where there's no good, bad, right, wrong? Now that's kind of mind blowing, and we can get into a whole other conversation about. But wait, what about when someone harms someone? That's not what I'm saying. There are consequences for when we hurt people, and there are con. We don't. I don't have to agree with you. I don't have to agree with you. But but it doesn't mean I have to judge you.

Michael Balchan  48:44

I've talked in various places, but I've been having fun with the Course in Miracles, and 

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  48:48

oh yeah,

Michael Balchan  48:49

yeah, yeah. So the the judgment obviously comes up, and the lack of judgment obviously comes up a lot in those in those practices as well. What have we not talked about? That given all the things that we have, you really you want to make sure that we dig into.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  49:03

Well, I want to know what's. I mean, I'm always wanting to know what are the biggest challenges coaches are facing, right? Like, I want to know what what are the things getting in the way of us making a bigger difference in the world. I want to know what's getting in the way of people having the businesses they want to be having, you know, I think this is the best profession on the planet. But I don't necessarily think it's an easy one to be successful at, right? I do think there's a high bar to success, and I like that because I like a challenge, right? So, so remember, I was a CrossFitter. I like things to be hard, or I used to anyway, right? But it's like that's not true for everyone, and it's and I think it's really important to remember this is a profession where we don't have to do it alone, and that's why you're all in this community, right? So I'm curious about what everyone here wants to work on and what's what's missing for them. That's really what I want to know.

Michael Balchan  50:00

Well, let's do this. Everyone, take a moment, think about that. Write something down. What's the what's the pick any one of the different kind of prompts that Carolyn just offered up? What's the biggest challenge you're facing? Business building, etc. Take a moment, write it down. We'll turn it over and bring some folks up for connecting and getting some coaching on that in just a moment, but while you're thinking about that and writing that down, Carolyn, where would you point folks? You've got you've got the book. Where's the best place to go? Learn more about the school. All the things.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  50:32

Well, you can learn about the school at my website. If you go up, it'll say the CFJ Coaching Success School, and we are launching our ninth year, the ninth year of the school, which I'm excited about. Right? I mean, I if you said to me, Carolyn, one day you're going to have a school and it'll have be around for nine years, I'd be like, you are not talking to the right person because I cut so much high school that there was many many letters sent to my house that I managed to grab before my parents saw them. You know, so believe me, I am not like you know I was not what one would call a high achiever in my youth. I got to college thankfully, but not it was it was not an easy run for me, so I I'm thrilled to be able to have something called a school that is really helping coaches. I love it, and my website's great. The Total Coaching Success book is a great book for coaches who want and like who want help growing their businesses. And it was super fun to write. I love writing. It's one of the things I love to do that I never knew I did.

Michael Balchan  51:45

Beautiful, and we'll drop we'll drop links to all those and send them the follow up as well. So, let's see if you would like to connect with Carolyn. You guys know the drill. Hit the raise hand button. We'd love to bring you up. We've got just over 30 minutes, I think, left. So let's make that a fun, extraordinary, valuable set of time. We already got a couple of folks ready to go. So, Kimmy, I loved your reactions. They were popping up the whole time. Appreciate your enthusiasm. Let's start with you.

Kimmy Luong  52:15

Thanks so much, Michael. Thanks, Carolyn. You mentioned how you have three to four, you have three to four conversations, 90-minute conversations with pre-clients, right? And then you say, "This is our third conversation. So, what if at that point they say, "No, thank you, and I'd love to hear what your take is on the next few months or six months following up, or not even following up because that's probably a gur term. But um, you know, because you're truly interested in,

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  52:49

yeah. Well, first of all, like the way I relate to it, Kimmy is no conversation's ever over, right? So if someone says no, that doesn't mean no forever. It doesn't. It just means no for now. So you know what I'm usually thinking about is how do I continue to nurture and serve someone? Some people are long games. I mean, I have people that I served and said no, and then two years later they became my client, right? So I'm I'm continuing to serve them, and what that looks like is like, first of all, I'm always going to write when someone says no. I'm like, I acknowledge it. I honor it. I'm not trying to convince anyone not to say no, right? Because that's talk. That's that's not where we want to go. And believe me, I know lots of coaches who've, without knowing, started to try to like, ah, no, you don't understand, right? So I'm gonna acknowledge them, and I'm gonna send them a beautiful email after that acknowledges all the things I see in them, and then I'm gonna just have them on my calendar slash radar once a month, and I'm gonna go. Is there anything I want to send, Kimmy? Is there a book I think that would really be of value to her, or a video or an article? And there might be, and then I'll be like, Hey, Kimmy, I saw this and I thought of you. Let me know how you're doing when you get a moment? That's all. Like I'm gonna keep touching them in different ways, right? And then it depends if my intuition is like in six months or a year. Hey, Kimmy, I want to know I'm doing this thing. Do you want to have a conversation about how your business is going? Because I'm connecting with a lot of people right now. If you want to, we can, and totally fine if no. I'll invite them to things, right? Like if I'm doing something, I'm going to invite them. We want to like keep serving people, and I'm going to make it okay. Now, if I if I stop hearing from them, if they don't answer my emails, if it's like I get dead air, at some point they might fall off my list for a while. Like I'm going to pay attention to see if there's engagement.

Kimmy Luong  54:45

Great, love it. And you're not using AI or anything for that follow up. Like it's just very intentional and on your own. And

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  54:52

no, I I want to be upfront with everyone. Like I, if you're not on my email list, I invite you to join it because I send out two emails a week to coach. Sometimes one, almost always two, and I've shared a lot about AI and how I don't think it's of service to us in the relationship building parts of our business. I really don't, because I think that. And by the way, I wrote something just recently about a coach who came to me and said, a client, a prospective client, asked me if I used AI when I wrote to them.

Kimmy Luong  55:28

Yep,

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  55:29

and I want to be prepared for that question, even if I'm not using AI, because it's coming. It's coming for all of us, and people are going to want to know, did you use AI? And and I want us to have clear answers, and then if we're using it, we like someone said they said the person didn't believe them and chose not to work with them. Not fun. It's going to happen.

Kimmy Luong  55:51

Thank you.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  55:52

You're so welcome,

Michael Balchan  55:54

Kimmy. Before you go, I'm curious, and the answer might be no, but if there is a specific situation that you're currently going through, or or broader space that the question kind of came from.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  56:06

Yeah, thank you, Michael.

Kimmy Luong  56:08

Sure. I meet a lot of people, so I'm out in the world, like Carolyn. You know, not just cross. Well, I don't cross it, but you know. So I have I have people from all all kinds of places, and I think when you say, you know, you reach out to them once a month or so. For me, if I, you know, have this like this, I have if I were to have a list, it would be cumulative, and it would be in the 1000s at this point, right? And so, well, I guess you have an email, but like a standard email.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  56:43

I do.

Kimmy Luong  56:44

So I so that's what you're saying.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  56:47

Oh, wait a second. Let me slow down, Kimmy. Do you mean like, oh, how would I keep in touch with that many people? Is that part of this

Kimmy Luong  56:53

in a in a one on one basis versus the mass email?

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  56:58

Right. So here's what I would suggest. So, like, I have my own mass email, right? But I also probably have a running list of anywhere from 20 to 40 people that I might be actively nurturing. So, I'm not trying to nurture 1000 people. I don't know that we can do that, right? But I, I can actively nurture 20 to 40.

Kimmy Luong  57:22

Awesome! Super helpful, Michael. Thank you for asking that question too.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  57:27

Yeah, for sure.

Kimmy Luong  57:28

Thank you, Carolyn.

Michael Balchan  57:29

It's easy to ask general questions than not talk about why it's an actual problem for us.

Kimmy Luong  57:33

Right.

Michael Balchan  57:33

Let's say hypothetically there was this relationship. Rally, great to see you.

Areli Marina  57:41

Lovely to see you. Firstly, Carolyn, I read the first chapter of your book today, and you are the only person in this space that has made me cry two times in one chapter. Thank you for that. The feeling of you with me was so strong that I would, I literally canceled things to be here now. I'm glad I did. I have two questions. One is short and wacky, and the other one is like the thing at the center of my plate. But I'm just so curious. What percentage of people's income is an appropriate percentage? I realize it varies for people to actually spend on coaching.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  58:20

So I'm going to say something that might sound wacky in response. I don't there's anything quote unquote appropriate. I mean, personal decision, right? I mean, you could have looked at what I invested in Steve early on and thought that is wildly inappropriate given what you make, and it was the right thing to do. So I don't have like you know. Look, I will say to someone because my fees are very different now to work with for someone to work with me individually. I will be honest in that I don't think this is an appropriate thing for you to do yet. Like you're not at a place where making this kind of investment makes sense. However, short of when a coach is 50k and above, I don't know. Like who am I to say what's appropriate, right? Like people IRA accounts and people have family members. I don't know. It's it's. I don't think we can determine that for someone if that's what you mean. And and I'll do what Michael said. What's making you ask that?

Areli Marina  59:13

Well, I'm not. I'm thinking about determining it for me. So I'm trying to decide like how much money. Like, do I think of this like buying a car or buying a house or like buying yoga.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  59:23

Oh, great! Okay, so for you to make your own investment, got it. Well, the fact that you're thinking about it at all is good news, right? Because many, many coaches I know are not investing in themselves in their business, and I don't think that's in service to them. Because we grow faster, our businesses grow faster when we are being coached, when we are hiring someone or a group, whatever we do, it's a good thing. You know, I would say to you that you know, there's really no way to go about this and do. Wrong. I want to be upfront, right? Like to me, what's more important is that your own inner guidance be the the determiner of what's okay for you, right? Because I know coaches who you put their coach on a credit card, right? Now there are other coaches who would never do that. Like I know someone who is like 50k. I want to work with that coach. They put it on a credit card. Their ability to tolerate that discomfort was much higher. Another coach is like, I'm not putting that on a credit card. I'm not going into debt to work with someone. So I feel like even the fact that you're asking the question says to me you have a lot of your own inner guidance that I think will really guide you here. I mean that, and and don't don't like you're to me for a coach to ask that. I'm like, hey, the thing I want to know when I invest in something or someone is, am I going to make that money back? And I won't that of the coach or the program. Will I make this money back? I think that is the minimum you want to have help doing. Is that helpful? No,

Areli Marina  1:00:59

that's absolutely that's immensely helpful. Do I thank you very very much, and I'm aware that Kevin is in line. Do I get to ask my second question, or do I defer it, Michael? Do I defer it, Carolyn?

Michael Balchan  1:01:10

Go for it. There's

Areli Marina  1:01:10

that. Okay, so this is my next question, and I'm going to be absolutely honest here. I used to say I had a visibility problem that I realized was a get out of your house and meet people. Problem. Got out of my house and met people, and then I learned that I am not actually certain that what I have to offer has value, even if the value is not measured in money. Like if you said to me, Aurelie, if you had $10 million to give away to people, and you for whatever cause to do the world good that they wanted, I would walk out the door and I'd be accosting people in all directions. Right, there would be no inhibition. So why, when I believe sincerely that coaching is transformative in every conceivable scope in the world, why? I don't know that you can answer this question, but my question is: Why am I? Do I feel inhibited when I believe that it's a comparable thing?

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:02:08

It's a really good question, right? So it sounds like it touches something deep inside of you. Is that accurate?

Areli Marina  1:02:13

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, like it's somehow it's wrong to ask for money for something that is soul work.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:02:23

Well, you're not alone in having that. I will tell you that when I taught at the University of Santa Monica and we led their soul-centered professional coaching program, it was very common to have a coach who was a U.S.M. grad be like, "How can I charge money for this? It doesn't feel okay, and. I can appreciate that. And at the same time, what I want to say to you, Aureli, is, um, you are probably also wanting to create a living where you can fund your life. Is that accurate?

Areli Marina  1:02:59

Absolutely.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:03:00

Yeah. So to me, if this is the path you're choosing to do that in, then the way I relate to it is I have a responsibility to charge a fee because this is how I'm earning my living. Now, whether or not you're going to spend money with me, that's up to you. But if this is how I choose to make my living, I'm not doing this as a volunteer, I'm not doing this purely as service for no fee. Then that's my responsibility, and and it really it begins and ends with that, right? It's like it's like you're going to transform someone's life that has tremendous value. Now we can't put a price on that. There's no price on that, right? That could be like you said, a million dollars, but there can be a fee associated with your time and your energy serving someone, and I think it's important. I think it's an important thing to come to terms with because our willingness to earn a good living as coaches is part of, like Steve Chandler has a joke. No one hires an unsuccessful success coach.

Areli Marina  1:04:05

Absolutely, yeah.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:04:06

Right. So it's like you have a responsibility to create your business in a way that is productive and effective and works for your life. And people get to choose whether or not they're going to spend money on you. That's up to them. But your job, Aureli, is to put a fee on it and then go and do your work and let the the universe do the rest.

Areli Marina  1:04:30

Absolutely. And what comes to me very clearly is that my story is kind of bullshit because now that I hear you speak, I see that. Charging people for so so you know for so it feels weird and something that I can say but what I'm actually hearing now and I'm going to say this in front of all these people but I'm going to go for it I don't feel like I deserve it like I I don't deserve to get paid which is not something I like was in my conscious. At all, so thank you.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:05:01

Well, can I? I don't

Areli Marina  1:05:02

think about that, please. Yeah.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:05:04

So that's a different thing, right? Called "Am I worthy? And to me, that's a universal thing. We all struggle. Like worthiness is kind of like what most of us deal with, right? And I want to get whether or not I get paid out of the question. I want to separate that from "Am I worthy? Because "Am I worthy? is really a spiritual question. That's not a "Should I get paid? question. So you can have "Am I worthy? live in a separate place from "I am getting paid for my job, because that my job is what I get paid for. Yes, I have worthiness issues, like all of us do, but that is separate from I have a job in which I earn a living. Like my joke with coaches, Aurelie is like, "Hey, you can be, you can feel unworthy all you want and still charge a fee. Both can be true. Both can be true. I'm going to be looking at my worthiness issues maybe all my life, but I don't want that to get in the way of me learning how to earn a good living, right? Like they can be distinct, and I can do the inner work as I'm practicing asking for a fee.

Areli Marina  1:06:20

Yeah,

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:06:22

and I mean that, right? Like, I don't want to diminish that. There's a part of me that feels unworthy, but I also don't want to diminish. Like, hey, like you're here to learn how. Like, you're here to earn a good living. And one of the ways we start to, funnily enough, feel more worthy is by earning. It's kind of funny, right? I might feel unworthy, but if I just focus on this and not work on creating a strong income, this may continue to get bigger and wider and a bigger question. Versus, yeah, I feel unworthy from time to time, but you know what? I earn a good living, and I'm serving people and making a difference in their lives. So who cares if I feel unworthy? I'm making a difference.

Areli Marina  1:07:04

Thank you.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:07:05

Sending you lots of love. I really hear you. You're not alone.

Areli Marina  1:07:09

Thank you.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:07:10

I'm glad you were here. 

Areli Marina  1:07:12

Met oo. Yeah.

Michael Balchan  1:07:15

And then I want to before we go, but I can't find me. So maybe there we go, Caroline. I want to emphasize one of the things that came up in your language around fees, fees, fees, right? Like asking for a fee. You weren't asking for money. There's never this problem like money. It was like earning a fee, asking for a fee. I'm not. I'm not asking people to pay for me. I'm asking them to pay the fee, right? And I'm and I'm putting a fee on the services that I'm offering. So there's a there's a distancing and a power and a separation. Like, well, that's just the fee for the service. And it popped up in in frankly every every response you had that was associated with it, like never price, never money. Just like there's a fee. And so I think it's important to just highlight and recognize, like this, this is a fee for a service, and and create that additional separation between personal worthiness and fee for service. Like that's right. They're they're

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:08:16

they're totally different because our worthiness can never be. There's no there's no number on our worthiness, right? Our worthiness is not on a dimmer switch. It doesn't go up when we do X Y Z, and it doesn't go down, right? So it's like I want my worthiness to be separate, and my fees are my fees, and they are associated with what I do for work, right?

Michael Balchan  1:08:36

And you use I love the the I have a responsibility, right? Like if I've chosen to earn a profession, make this my profession, earn a living, do this, then I have a responsibility to charge a fee. Like that goes with this process. And if not, if you want to do free coaching, you don't want to like earn a living. Awesome. Don't don't charge a fee. Like you're good. Right.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:08:55

And I I know coaches who have you know inherited wealth, and I'm like, you don't necessarily need to do this for a fee. That's not where you're at because they're struggling, right? And I'm like, hey, if you don't need to, like I need to. So let me be clear. Like earning a living is an important thing in my life, right? Like I didn't grow up with huge amounts of inherited wealth, so there's no question for me about that, right? Like, and sometimes I still feel unworthy.

Michael Balchan  1:09:21

Yeah, and then if if you don't need to earn a fee, you still are limited in your time and your focus and your attention. And so you need to be clear on how are you going to create the container in the relationship for like who am I coaching, who am I not coaching, and the fee can be a part of a tool that a coach uses to do that, but it's not the only one, and it doesn't have to be.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:09:44

That's right,

Michael Balchan  1:09:45

Kevin. Welcome, good to see you.

Kevin Loder  1:09:50

Hello, hey Carolyn, happy to be here, and beautiful to witness the coaching with Kimmy and Aureli. Answered some of my questions, but I'll I'll go. With this one, Carolyn, the topic of addressing discomfort in order for true transformation. Some of the most of the coaching I do, I'm meeting them during their workday. They might they might have a work call scheduled right after meeting with me. So the further I get along in sessions, you know, session five, six, and seven, and so we've moved beyond some of the knowledge and skills, productivity type topics to more the beliefs and mindsets where it's like, ooh, we're starting to the metal detector's going off. There's buried treasure, but it's it's not going to be pain free to go there,

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:10:41

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin Loder  1:10:42

And sometimes they will let me know, like, I'm about to tear up. We can't go there right now. I have a full packed day and so forth. So, I want to be a brave coach. I want to be courageous. I also want to respect their work day. But how do I not abandon them in that hard moment. Do you know assign homework of here's some reflection questions, or and then revisit that later. Yeah, to get at that transformation.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:11:14

Yeah, it's such a good question, Kevin. First of all, I really acknowledge you that that is even happening, right? That they're coming to the moment where they have some tears and they can feel it right. You know, a couple thoughts come to me. Have you ever considered saying to them, "Listen, we're starting to get into some deeper stuff here, and I want you to get the most you can get from our work together. Would you ever consider us meeting outside of your workday, that might be a question I'd pose, right? Because I'm like, you know, I I I don't want you to have to hold back because you got to go to a meeting the moment we hang up. So I just and I'd say I want to put that out there, and I'd acknowledge it. So I want to name what's happening. Hey, I'm noticing that we're starting to get into some deeper stuff, and I want you to get full value, and I can tell that you're like, hey, I can't do that right now. So can we meet outside of your workday? Number one, number two, can there or could there be a buffer where you have 20 minutes after a session to go and pull yourself together? Like, in other words, can you bring some tissues, go in the bathroom, right? Like, is there a way we can create this together so that you can go as deep as possible.

Kevin Loder  1:12:25

Love it

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:12:26

because I don't think there's an alternative, Kevin. Right? Like, like to me, if you're starting to go there, what are we going to do? Have them not go there? Like, I don't like you wouldn't want that,

Kevin Loder  1:12:38

right? Want to get that at that actual leverage, the transformation, which happens when it going into the beliefs and mindsets rather than

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:12:48

oh yeah, I mean so there's two ways to coach right. So I love these references like Aureli mentioned it. So there's soul line coaching right, which is what they talk about the University of Santa Monica, and there's goal line coaching. The other way to think of it is there's the chess board of life, and there's the chess player. So chess board is like probably the early stuff you're doing, right, or the goal line stuff. And now you're starting to get into chess player or soul line stuff. And you can even name it that way. So Kevin, you could say to them, look, we're you know we've been in the chessboard of life, and now we're starting to get into the chess player, or you can use another reference. I know people have used tennis court versus tennis player. You know, you can use whatever they like, but it's like it's important to acknowledge them. We're starting to go deeper, and you, I, it's my job. Look, I respect you. Made an investment. I don't want you to get just the surface level. So, what do we want to do here? And I would co-create it with them because they could go, "Oh, Kevin, I don't know about like I could do it after work one night, and then obviously that has to work for you, Kevin, right? Like, I don't know, right? Like, is there a reason they're doing it during their workday? Is that about you? Is that about them?

Kevin Loder  1:14:06

Some good technical things to address, but upfront, name it. I follow a session plan, so I know to I could mention, hey, session seven or nine will be more. That's cool. I want you to create some extra buffer time, or not have. Oh,

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:14:23

that's great! If you already know, I would be giving them a lot of forecasting. Session nine, you're going to need your tissue box. You're going to need to have a buffer, and you might want to bring extra mascara and makeup to put yourself together again. Like I would forecast it. I would love that. If someone told me that, I'd be like, "All right, now I know.

Kevin Loder  1:14:43

Yeah. Okay, that's crystal clear now. To foreshadow that as part of the schedule that's planned, sometimes the sessions are customized. I'm always willing to, but can say if we follow the plan. By the way,

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:14:58

right

Kevin Loder  1:14:58

when we'll get to that. And love customizing it too-of chess player or tennis player, goal line, soul line, high value there. So, thank you, Carolyn.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:15:08

You're so welcome. Great to meet you.

Kevin Loder  1:15:10

Great to meet you.

Carolyn Freyer Jones  1:15:11

Yeah,

Michael Balchan  1:15:12

appreciate you, Kevin. I I could draw connected lines and just really appreciate the question, the way that you're approaching it, and all the things. And we do have space for one more. So if you had something that you wrote down as part of that little prep that you maybe are looking for the courage to come make it valuable for everybody else, I would invite you to raise that hand. But Caroline, I also wanted to double tap on. You hear a lot of folks talk about co-creation, and oh, co-create that with somebody, and and it's it's a easy thing to say, but it's often hard to understand. Like, what does it actually mean to co-create with something? And then, connected to that, from my mind, is is leadership. And I think there's a there's a possibility in a coaching relationship. We're like, well, take leadership of the situation without necessarily knowing this is where we're going. This is exactly what it's going to look like, et cetera. So, so how do you think about co-creation, leadership, doing that in a way that that is inviting and ultimately creates a an outcome that both parties feel ownership of and creativity and and all those things?

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:16:19

I love that question. And one thing I want to say, like you know, to me, we are leaders as professional coaches. I know that many of us don't think of it like that, but particularly in enrollment, we are leading the process, right? So I do want to say that, and when someone becomes our client, right, they've now paid in my work. I'm going to create agreements with them around the work, right? And agreements mean they agree or they say no. I don't agree to show up to my session on time. Now that would be silly. Most people would agree to that, and I think it's this is where the benefit of being coached as a coach comes in, or being in an environment like this where you can bring a question like this because I think the answer to that is different depending on the situation, right? So in Kevin's situation, right, like that's an opportunity to talk about it to find out. Well, what is your work situation? Can we do this outside of work? Like, I that's a that to me is more co-creative. Now, is there a world where Kevin could say to someone, maybe at some point he will in his coaching? I want to let you know the work I do gets very deep over a period of time. There's going to be sessions where it's going to be really important that you not be at work. So I'm going to say right now, sessions five through 10, you, I don't want you at work. I want you in another environment. Now that's more directive, right? And that could be like I'm taking leadership of my work and how I want it to be done. So to me, every situation is so different in terms of leadership versus co-creation. I mean, I like to think I'm always co-creating with my clients, but you know, there's that Ralph Waldo Emerson quote: "People long to be led. We long to be led, right? Like Steve created a container for me where I knew there were edges, and I knew he was going to lead it. Meaning, like there'd be a beginning of the session, there'd be an end of the session. He would take responsibility for saying, "Let's get your next session on the calendar. I think there are really key things that we are leaders and need to demonstrate that. And then I think there are places in between where it's like, "Hey, I'm noticing that when we do sessions, it seems like you're coming really distracted. Can we talk about that? Right? It's like I don't want to like be like you can't show up here looking distracted, right? Like I want to be like, what's going on? I'm noticing something.

Michael Balchan  1:18:53

And that that combination of language, right, that's popped up again. So I'm like, hey, I'm noticing this. Can we talk about this? Hey, I'm noticing this. What do you make about this? Hey, just that that non-judgmental discernment, right? Like I'm nosing this thing. Like what's what's underneath there? Let me practice some curiosity. That's right. And then you know, connected to that co-creation and leadership, and back when we talked about very early on in the conversation around thinking space versus the exchange and and finding your own coaching style and like some people like I got the answer. This is the the move on the chessboard. Move the knight from the spotlight. Like this is what you got to do. How how how and maybe for you it's just intuition, and I I know that there's not an actual answer for this, but but that that you've got some of the governing bodies and institutions, but I was like, no, you can't ever offer, don't ever give them the answer. You got to stay in this thinking based on questions. You got to like just tell them, and then there's this.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:19:59

Okay, so let. Handle that. Number one, I want to be clear. I am a University of Santa Monica grad, and I am not certified, as Steve Chandler would say. Steve Chandler's not certified. His joke is, I'm not even justified, right? Like I work with many coaches, both the faculty at my school to the coaches who come to my school. Some are self-taught. Some are certified now, and there's the whole range. I do not subscribe to any model that says I cannot at any time say to someone, "May I offer you the potential of an answer in this situation? Right now, I'm going to say it like I'll like I'll say now. Look, I could say something to you right now that would be what might be called an answer. Is that something you would like to hear, or would you like to spend more time you exploring this? I think there's a combination, right? Sometimes my coaching looks like me saying, "Here's what I would do. Sometimes my coaching looks like I'm not going to answer that. Let's talk about what's making you ask me for my thoughts on that, right? Like it's a whole combo of things. So I don't subscribe to any of those like governing body things. I I have other colorful words for it that I will not use, but I do not subscribe to them because I think coaching is a profession that has so much in it. Like I don't want to see it. I don't want to see it federalize. I don't want to see any of that. I think therapy. There are great therapists, and there are really bad therapists. And I don't think that the governing body has done much to enhance it other than put rules on it and make money off of

Michael Balchan  1:21:41

it, and just all the frameworks you gave in the language. And and again, one of my one of the things that to me separates a great coach, and like you just I know that I'm in the presence of someone who's who's master the craft is the language, the words that they're using, right, and just the the the little contextual clues that do all the things that the governing buyers are trying to create space and get permission and and and that can be done with the right set of words are like, look, I've got an answer that that is that what you want to go for here? Like, I'll answer the question, but I want to understand these different kind of pieces, and so just to really appreciate the the different little linguistic phrases that came up of just how you think about that moment of of opportunity to go in one direction with the coaching style versus another direction and to be clear about what's present for you, but invite the other person into it and not want to take moves off off the table. I think that's categorical. Do do this and never do this. Like,

Kimmy Luong  1:22:44

right?

Michael Balchan  1:22:45

Sure, maybe. Except,

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:22:48

except for when, right? And that takes time, right? Like, I'm all for like if you learned a certain way, follow the structure until you feel at ease enough to play with

Michael Balchan  1:22:58

1. If you want to learn to improvise well, like you should practice copying exactly what other people are doing for long.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:23:05

100% I mean,

Michael Balchan  1:23:06

that reminds me. One of the one of the folks that another faculty members at the school has come through, done a luminary session. At least one, maybe two. But he's one of the more successful grads we've had. He talked about that when he was first starting out coaching, literally just had sticky notes everywhere with like the questions and the phrase. Like I don't just say, let me look at the sticky note. Like there's there's something there.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:23:30

Oh yeah, like Michelle and I had 8 million sticky notes of Steve's phrases.

Michael Balchan  1:23:36

Paul, let's go and then let's let's keep it tight and then wrap up. So I feel like Price is Right.

Paul  1:23:46

Hi everyone. Hi Carolyn. Hi. Well, a little dangerous question because it comes from the perspective of I was trained through ILM and member of Association of Coaching, and my question is really about agreements that you put in place between a coach and a coachee, and specifically, how do you differ in the agreements you discuss when you're in a pre-fee relationship? Those three or so sessions, or even when you're just chatting somebody up even before you have a scheduled call. How do you think about the agreements that you need to put in place.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:24:22

I love that question, and I don't think about them at all. Like I joke with coaches, I'm like, no, no, no, they don't know what agreements are. Like, there's no agreements per se until we're in a formal coaching relationship, right? Like, if I'm in a third conversation and someone has shown up late for all three, I might bring it up as an area of opportunity, like, hey, I'm noticing every time we've met, you've come you've come in like 10 minutes late. I'm just curious about that. Like, is that something you work with in your life? But I'm not going to be like, well, we had an agreement, or let's make an agreement. I don't want to do that. I mean, I joke. It's like until you've paid me, we're not going to talk about. Agreements because I it's a deep conversation. I don't you know they're they're so trick they can be tricky ish so it's fine like I'm like you know coaches ask me all the time in the school like should I have an agreement with them and I'm like no just let's ease into this right and then what I say to someone is look if someone's like yes I want to work with you I say great so here's what's going to happen. You're going to send me the fee. Here's how you do that, and then a few minutes before our launch session, I'm talking like three minutes. You're going to get an email with a page of agreements on it. You and I are going to walk through those together at the beginning of the launch session. We're going to talk about it, and we will go from there. So they don't get. I don't do contracts. No one signs anything because people tend to get scared. And we don't talk about the agreements till we're really at the launch. I don't send them before someone pays because I don't want to freak someone out and have them run away. I've had it happen. This is all from learning, not because I knew how

Paul  1:26:00

to do it. Okay, and even about confidentiality, do you how do you handle that?

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:26:04

I mean, I let them know in enrollment, right? Like if I'm in an enrollment, I say to them, everything you share with me is confidential. So I've I've stated that, and then I restated after someone becomes my client.

Paul  1:26:17

Okay, thank you.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:26:18

Really good questions, Paul. Thank you.

Michael Balchan  1:26:21

Appreciate everybody who had a question today, and the Carolyn, all the wisdom you've shared. I'd love to know on the way out here. Final question: What's one thing that we can do for you as individuals, as a community committed to spreading ripples out in the world, ripples of you know positivity and love, or whatever feels resonant for you. What's one thing that each of us can commit to doing?

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:26:45

Well, one of the things that we talk about in my school is when one of us wins, we all win, right? So when one person gets a client, we all get a client. When one person just you know gets a new project, so I'm a fan of like to celebrate each other and to encourage each other, and to to be people in the world, right? Like this is a profession that has some, you know. Remember all the when sitcoms started making jokes about life coaches, there was a reason for that, right? So we want to become strong professionals who know how to have conversations, who know how to handle when someone says no? We want to learn how to do this well because every time one of us does this well, it helps the entire profession, right? So I'm a fan of all of us learning how to be strong, loving, clear professionals because then we pave the way for all the other coaches that are coming.

Michael Balchan  1:27:44

Beautiful,

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:27:45

yeah. And they do make jokes about CEOs. They make jokes. That's all. That's everything, right? Every job. So we want to have less sitcom jokes about life coaches, like paid friendships, all those things. We want them to go away.

Michael Balchan  1:27:57

And and and that strong, Loving, clear capacity for showing up, and we didn't touch on it too much. But you know, AI was a peripheral through thread throughout, and like at this time when its emergence is doing so much in different kind of ways, I think coaching and the ability to relate, relate deeply, and support one another in creating the life, the future, all the things that coaching can help to facilitate is going to be, you know, as Counterpoint says, but both more rare and more valuable, and a really key lever for shifting the direction of where we go.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:28:38

100% No one, nothing can take the place of a powerful human relationship. Nothing, AI will be what it is, and I'm not saying it's evil or anything like that. It cannot replace the work that you each do or that I do. Nobody has the water that you have. Nobody has the water that I have, and that will never change.

Michael Balchan  1:29:02

This has been amazing. Appreciate you, your energy, all the things, and I'm sure. Well, there's a there's more to come. But fired up! Day one, everyone who joined live, everyone who catches the replay. Appreciate you too.

Carolyn Freyer-Jones  1:29:15

Super fun to be here. Thank you all. Have a beautiful day.

Michael Balchan  1:29:18

Yeah.

 

*This transcript was generated using AI speech-to-text and may contain inaccuracies.*