With Travis Thomas

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Full Transcript

Michael Balchan | 00:00:00

All right, fired up. Travis Thomas, coach, speaker, and author. You’ve worked with athletes and teams across the NCAA, MLB, NFL, and MLS, as well as serving as the leadership and team dynamics coach for the U.S. Men’s National Soccer Team during the 2022 World Cup.

You’ve written a couple of books. It started with Three Words for Getting Unstuck: Live Yes, And. “Live Yes, and” is the ethos and the place where you tend to live and operate. Then there is Confidence Is Overrated: Why Courage Is the Antidote and Feelings Make Cowards of Us All.

I’m fired up to unpack some of the wisdom in those books, but more importantly, to connect and learn how we can apply it to our lives. Those who are part of Heroic will know the spirit of living “Yes, and” and its origins in the improvisational world. Therefore, they know this entire conversation will be very structured and scripted. We are not going to deviate.

Travis Thomas | 00:01:04

I needed to approve all the questions. I needed to know exactly what was going to happen during this session.

No, not at all.

Michael Balchan | 00:01:10

Let’s go back to the beginning. You found improvisational techniques, and they transformed how you were showing up in the world. What was that process like?

Travis Thomas | 00:01:23

I had no idea that this thing I thought was a fun hobby would become transformational in my life.

My wife and I got married right out of college and ended up in Boston, Massachusetts. We were working beginner jobs and trying to figure out what we wanted to do in the world. An improvisational comedy theater had opened a few months earlier, so we went to see a show.

I was blown away by how talented the cast was. I wanted to understand how they could put a group of people onstage without a script, throw random ideas at them, and somehow turn them into cohesive and brilliantly funny scenes.

I grew up near a Second City theater in Detroit and had always thought it would be fun to take an improvisation class. I became part of the first training center class at Improv Asylum in Boston. I started with a Level One class for fun, and a year and a half later, I graduated from Level Six as part of the first graduating class.

They encouraged me to audition for a touring company. I made the cast and eventually worked my way onto the main-stage cast that had impressed me so much a few years earlier. I was doing something I loved, and many light bulbs were going off during that experience. It became transformational, even though I did not recognize it at the time.

I later moved to Florida and started an improvisational group with two other guys in 2004. The three of us have been performing together for 22 years. We still get together for shows.

Eventually, I shifted into personal development, mindset, and leadership coaching. I had not known that improvisational principles would become my unique way of entering those different spaces. That is the short version of how improvisation informed what I do today.

Michael Balchan | 00:04:20

Trevor Moawad discussed neutral thinking in It Takes What It Takes, including his work with Russell Wilson. That has a different origin story but reaches a similar point.

The improvisational techniques and “Live Yes, And” are not simply a niche within personal development and coaching. They create a strong foundation that allows you to say yes to what is and then ask what you want to create.

What makes “Live Yes, And” so powerful? How did your improvisational training prepare you to deliver this mental work in the coaching space?

Travis Thomas | 00:05:16

If we dig into “Yes, and,” the newest episode of Ted Lasso recently discussed it. I am a huge Ted Lasso fan, although I wait for an entire season so I can binge it. Suddenly, my social media and text messages were blowing up because the new episode talked about “Yes, and.”

When I was with the U.S. Men’s National Team in 2021, Brendan Hunt, who plays Coach Beard, came to our postgame celebration after we won the Gold Cup. Brendan is an improviser and a huge soccer fan. Jason Sudeikis also came from improvisation at Second City.

I introduced myself to Brendan and told him I used “Yes, and” with the players on game-day mornings. He asked what I meant, so I explained that I did improvisation with the players. He said he needed to call Jason because they needed to work it into the show. That was in 2021. It took five years and a reboot of the show, but “Yes, and” finally appeared.

People sometimes tag me as the creator of “Yes, and.” I did not create “Yes, and.” I created “Live Yes, And.” There is no clear attribution for who originally created “Yes, and,” but it is the foundation of improvisation.

The “yes” is acceptance. Whatever you say to me onstage, I accept your idea as reality. We do not leave it there. The “and” means I build upon your idea and give you something new. You then accept my new idea and build upon it.

We create a story and a reality one “Yes, and” at a time. We are not saying no or disagreeing. Conflict can still exist, but we remain in total collaboration.

I grew up in a spiritual home, played sports, worked in the corporate world, and was newly married. I began wondering what it would look like to show up with “Yes, and” in my marriage, at work, and in sports.

In life, “yes” means accepting the facts and the experience that is happening instead of denying it. I do not have to like what is happening, but I must accept that it is happening.

We do not control 100 percent of what happens to us. We have tremendous influence, but we do not control everything that happens. That is the “yes.” It may be unpleasant, but I have to acknowledge it.

The “and” is where I have power. What am I going to do with this? What is the next right step?

When you live “Yes, and,” you are in radical collaboration with reality. It is no longer about controlling what happens. It is about controlling how you respond.

Trevor Moawad was considered one of the world’s best mental coaches. He founded Limitless Minds, where I am now one of the head coaches. Trevor became a friend before he passed away from cancer.

Before I joined Limitless Minds, Trevor and I were preparing to speak to the University of Georgia football team. He told me about neutral thinking. He explained that it was not about being positive or negative. It meant looking at a situation objectively, based on the facts, without allowing feelings, emotions, or judgments to determine your response.

I told him, “Trevor, that is ‘Yes, and.’”

The “yes” is objectively looking at what is happening without trying to control it. The “and” is deciding how to respond effectively to the new reality. “Yes, and” became a tool for teaching neutral thinking and helping people return to neutral more quickly.

Michael Balchan | 00:11:24

How do you apply that when working with individuals and teams?

The concept makes sense. “Yes” means accepting what is, and “and” means choosing what to build upon it. What does that look like when you work with a team? What exercises do you use, and why is that mindset important for an athlete entering competition?

Travis Thomas | 00:12:03

During the semifinal of a tournament in 2021, I led a mental skills session with the team. The coaches and players were together in a conference room at the hotel.

We looked at the two games remaining and listed every possible obstacle we might face: poor refereeing, a hostile environment, bad weather, poor field conditions, unlucky bounces, injuries, not playing well, or facing a strong opponent.

Not all those things would happen, but some probably would. Instead of fearing them, we decided to “Yes, and” them.

If we faced poor officiating, the “yes” was accepting that we were dealing with poor officiating. Then we identified how we wanted to respond behaviorally. We did the same thing for injuries and every other potential obstacle.

Instead of being afraid of adversity, we used “Yes, and” to accept that it might happen and prepare our behavioral response.

On game-day mornings, the players normally had physical activation. They would go to the training room, roll out, receive bodywork, connect, and play soccer tennis. I wondered where the mental activation was.

I started offering an optional 20-minute mental activation session before the physical meeting. Usually, eight to ten players attended. We stood in a circle, expressed gratitude, performed breathing exercises to become grounded, and played improvisational mental games.

The games moved them from thinking to responding. They came out of their heads and into their bodies while connecting with the people around them. These were simple games that improvisers use before classes or performances. They help us leave the thinking mind and enter the intuitive, responsive mind.

The players would laugh, make eye contact, have fun, and be silly. We used those exercises to activate them mentally.

Would you like to try one now?

Michael Balchan | 00:15:53

Yes, let’s do it.

Travis Thomas | 00:15:54

This activity happens at the beginning of many improvisation classes. It is usually done with a group, but it also works one-on-one.

I will say a random word. You will immediately say whatever that word makes you think of. I will respond with whatever your word makes me think of. We will continue responding to the newest word.

Do not think. Just respond. Do not be too inappropriate, but do not overthink it. Does that make sense?

Michael Balchan | 00:16:24

Sure.

Travis Thomas | 00:16:25

Candle.

Michael Balchan | 00:16:28

Wax.

Travis Thomas | 00:16:29

Drip.

Michael Balchan | 00:16:31

Pool.

Travis Thomas | 00:16:32

Water.

Michael Balchan | 00:16:34

Ocean.

Travis Thomas | 00:16:36

Sharks.

Michael Balchan | 00:16:38

Velociraptor.

Travis Thomas | 00:16:39

Dinosaur.

Michael Balchan | 00:16:42

Stegosaurus.

Travis Thomas | 00:16:43

Prehistoric.

Michael Balchan | 00:16:45

Birds.

Travis Thomas | 00:16:46

Swoop.

Michael Balchan | 00:16:50

Dinner.

Travis Thomas | 00:16:51

Hungry.

Michael Balchan | 00:16:54

Dinner.

Travis Thomas | 00:16:55

Chipotle.

Michael Balchan | 00:16:58

Black beans.

Travis Thomas | 00:16:59

Southwest.

Michael Balchan | 00:17:03

Arizona.

Travis Thomas | 00:17:04

Postcard.

Michael Balchan | 00:17:08

Welcome.

Travis Thomas | 00:17:10

Bienvenidos.

Michael Balchan | 00:17:12

Hola.

Travis Thomas | 00:17:13

Miami.

Michael Balchan | 00:17:15

Sea.

Travis Thomas | 00:17:17

Miami Vice.

Michael Balchan | 00:17:20

Crushed ice.

Travis Thomas | 00:17:22

Coca-Cola.

Michael Balchan | 00:17:26

Refrigerator.

Travis Thomas | 00:17:27

Power.

Michael Balchan | 00:17:30

Outage.

Travis Thomas | 00:17:32

Yesterday.

Michael Balchan | 00:17:34

Storms.

Travis Thomas | 00:17:35

Lightning.

Michael Balchan | 00:17:37

Thunder.

Travis Thomas | 00:17:38

Crush.

Michael Balchan | 00:17:41

Blue Steel.

Travis Thomas | 00:17:42

Ben Stiller. Time. Well done.

We had a power outage, and the power recently returned. Something is beeping in the background as everything resets.

How are you feeling right now?

Michael Balchan | 00:17:59

Good and focused, but also self-judgmental. I wondered whether I was doing it correctly and choosing the right words. My words felt closely connected to yours, and I wondered whether that was okay.

Travis Thomas | 00:18:14

That is the human side of the activity. Even though I told you there was no wrong answer, you still wondered whether you were giving the right one.

You responded quickly and did not appear to be overthinking. When we do this in a group, people make eye contact and remain focused. There is energy, urgency, and engagement.

Were you thinking about what happened five minutes ago?

Michael Balchan | 00:18:50

No.

Travis Thomas | 00:18:51

Were you thinking about the question you needed to ask five minutes later?

Michael Balchan | 00:18:55

No.

Travis Thomas | 00:18:55

Where was your attention?

Michael Balchan | 00:18:57

In the present.

Travis Thomas | 00:18:58

Your attention was in the present moment.

Our performance always happens in the present moment, so that is where our attention must be to perform effectively.

I am a fan of meditation and other mindfulness activities, but I am most mindful when improvising. Improvisation forces people to remain fully engaged in the present moment. Otherwise, I might miss my partner’s next idea or a subtle cue.

Nervousness, overthinking, criticizing a previous idea, or attempting to control where the story goes can remove us from the present. Life and performance are happening here and now.

The most important thing in my life at this moment is this conversation. I have other things to do, but this is where I can have the greatest impact right now.

I use improvisation to help athletes and other performers exercise the mindfulness muscle. The morning exercises help players warm up that muscle and respond instead of overthinking or attempting to control the moment.

Michael Balchan | 00:21:09

Thinking can pull us out of the present. We talk about training it and trusting it.

You have prepared and learned patterns that help you create magic in the moment. Professional athletes have also learned formations, movement patterns, and plays. In the moment, can they drop out of the thinking mind, enter their intuitive sense of self, and be present?

There is only one place where we can radically collaborate with reality.

Travis Thomas | 00:21:59

It is right here and right now.

Michael Balchan | 00:22:02

You said we do not have to like something, but we must accept it. People can struggle with that distinction. They may believe that accepting something means condoning it or saying the behavior is fine.

What is the difference between accepting, liking, validating, and allowing something? How do you work with someone who refuses to accept behavior they do not want to continue?

Travis Thomas | 00:22:41

When I say acceptance, I mean objectively examining the facts of the situation.

I do a lot of culture-building work with teams and organizations. I am in my sixth season with the St. Louis University men’s soccer team. We have created a clear, values-based culture.

Many organizations fail to clarify what their values look like as behavior. When mission, vision, and values become behaviors, those behaviors can be observed, measured, and held accountable.

Suppose respect is part of our culture, but you are treating teammates disrespectfully. Acceptance does not mean continuing to tolerate that behavior. Acceptance means acknowledging that Michael is treating people disrespectfully.

That is the reality. How will I radically collaborate with it?

I cannot pretend that the disrespect is not occurring because I want to avoid a difficult conversation or because you are a talented player whom we need on the field.

I am collaborating with reality, not with your behavior. I then decide how to respond in alignment with my principles and the team’s established culture.

Another example would be receiving a cancer diagnosis. Saying yes to the facts does not mean accepting cancer as the final outcome. It means acknowledging what the test revealed so I can take treatment, change my diet, and do whatever I can to create the best possible result.

Denying the facts prevents progress. Acceptance does not mean allowance. It means recognizing that something is happening.

I was having my best professional year in 2019. I believed nothing would stop me from traveling the world and speaking to live audiences in 2020. Then the pandemic arrived.

I had not done anything wrong, but I could do everything correctly and still have everything go wrong because I do not control outcomes. I influence them.

Acceptance means looking at the current facts and responding as effectively as possible. That response creates new facts, which creates a new “Yes, and.”

At Limitless Minds, we focus on taking the next right step. It is not the next right solution. The next right step puts us in a better position, and then we take another one.

Michael Balchan | 00:27:38

I love the distinction between collaborating with reality and collaborating with the behavior.

I do not have to approve of the behavior, but I must acknowledge that it is occurring. If a hypothetical Michael is both disrespectful and a talented player, both facts are part of the reality.

It is almost like searching for agency. What is outside my control, and where can I influence what happens next?

I have also heard “Yes, and” used in conversations and conflicts. Sometimes people replace “No, but” with “Yes, and,” but they are still using it as a disguised way of saying no.

That is different from genuinely communicating, “I see you, I hear you, and what you are expressing is valid. How can we collaborate with the reality we share?”

Do you encounter that? How do you help people shift their perspective?

Travis Thomas | 00:29:13

Research supports using “Yes, and” as a communication tool, but I do not want anyone to use it manipulatively or without integrity.

I encourage leaders and parents to train their default response to become “yes” or “yeah.” This sends a psychological message to the speaker that they are being heard.

As a leadership coach or mental skills coach, I spend much of a conversation listening. I frequently say, “Yeah. Okay. I understand. Tell me more. Why is that so impactful or frustrating for you?”

That is active, empathic listening. The other person hears validation for how they feel. Of course their feelings should be validated because they are genuinely experiencing them.

My job is not to invalidate another person’s feelings. Communication becomes ineffective when we tell people they should not feel the way they do.

I use the equation “V + E = P.” Validation plus encouragement equals progress.

“Yes” or “yeah” validates how someone feels. When coaching people, I want them to express all their feelings. Whether I agree with those feelings is irrelevant because the conversation is about them, not me.

Simon Sinek describes this as emptying the bucket. I compare it to releasing the helium from a birthday balloon. We must release the helium before blowing fresh air into the balloon.

The fresh air is encouragement. Encouragement should include practical next steps that we develop together.

Athletes usually call me because they are stuck, not because everything is going well. I want to understand why they are stuck. I listen and validate their experience until we are looking at the same horizon.

Then I ask, “What do you think you could do? What tactics can we try to move forward?”

They are more open to considering those questions because their feelings have been validated. Validation allows us to move into encouragement and create progress.

People often skip validation and jump directly to solutions. I do this in my marriage. Instead of listening, I may immediately say, “I know the problem. You should do this.”

The disagreement then becomes, “You do not listen to me. You do not hear me.”

People need to feel heard and valued before discussing solutions.

“Yes, and” also supports corporate brainstorming. Someone can take one person’s idea, combine it with another person’s contribution, and build something together. When people hear their names and ideas acknowledged, they know others heard them and are collaborating with them.

With children, it can also provide a gentler alternative to “No, but.”

A child might ask, “Dad, can I have another piece of chocolate cake?”

I can respond, “Yes, I understand that you want another piece of cake, and I think one is probably enough for tonight. We can have another piece tomorrow.”

That feels different from saying, “No, you cannot have another piece. You have already had one.” The response validates why the child wants more while still maintaining the boundary.

Michael Balchan | 00:36:08

In both examples, the emphasis is on building.

During brainstorming, it is not, “Yes, Travis, that is a great idea, and it will not work.” It means genuinely building upon the idea.

With the child, it means saying, “I understand why you want another piece of cake. We need to save some for tomorrow.”

It begins with truly hearing and honoring the other person. As you said, it is not my job to agree with another person’s feelings. Those feelings are their experience and cannot be argued away.

Then “V + E = P” helps us identify potential next steps and make progress.

Speaking of next steps, let’s discuss confidence versus courage. People in the Heroic community may encounter your second book and believe they already understand what you mean. It sounds similar to how we discuss confidence, but not how confidence is usually viewed.

Where did the book originate? What behaviors were you observing in athletes, organizations, and leaders? What central themes are most valuable for people working with others in a coaching capacity?

Travis Thomas | 00:37:50

I love this book. Once the idea became clear, it was the easiest book to write.

Bamboo may spend five years growing underneath the surface and then grow 90 feet in six weeks. Did it take six weeks or five years and six weeks?

People ask how long it took me to write the book. The writing took approximately six months, but the idea took about 15 years and six months. I sensed there was something important about confidence but could not initially articulate it.

Trevor Moawad often asked audiences whether they had ever felt nervous before doing something and still performed well. People said yes.

He then asked whether they had ever felt confident and performed poorly. Again, people said yes.

His point was that feelings do not predict outcomes. Behaviors do.

That stayed with me through my work in neutral thinking. After I began working with the national team, I spoke with youth teams, parents, and young athletes. Parents repeatedly asked whether I could help their child become more confident.

They would explain that the child was talented and sometimes performed well but struggled with confidence.

I would ask whether the child had ever felt nervous before a game and still performed well. The answer was usually yes.

Then I asked whether the child had ever felt confident and performed poorly. Again, the answer was yes.

So what did confidence have to do with the outcome?

We have been conditioned to think confidence has everything to do with success. Even mental performance coaches frequently offer techniques for becoming more confident.

I am not completely opposed to confidence, although I am moving closer to that position. I strongly oppose treating confidence as a prerequisite for success.

Confidence may help us feel better, but it does not guarantee that we will perform better. Excessive confidence can be a larger problem than insufficient confidence.

Suppose you have an important presentation. You know you have the skill and have succeeded before, but you feel nervous. Because you are nervous, you will probably prepare carefully, focus on the correct behaviors, review the details, and remain attentive.

What happens when we are overconfident? We may decide we do not need to prepare because we have done it before.

Successful teams sometimes forget how difficult success is. Good results can make them believe winning is easy. Overconfidence makes it harder to do the necessary work.

Nervousness can make us more willing to prepare because we remember what the performance requires.

I want to relieve the pressure placed on athletes, children, leaders, and coaches who believe they must feel confident to succeed.

Would you rather your child possess courage or confidence?

Michael Balchan | 00:43:50

Courage.

Travis Thomas | 00:43:51

Every day of the week.

Courage is the antidote because it is the willingness to act anyway.

If I only act when I feel confident, how will I ever attempt something I am not good at and improve? Why would I initially feel confident about something I have not learned?

Confidence generally follows competence. We develop competence by doing things we are not yet good at. That is uncomfortable, and moving through that discomfort requires courage.

I exchange messages with youth, college, and professional players every week. Before a game, I may ask how they are feeling because I care about them.

They might feel great, nervous, or somewhere in between. I validate the feeling, but then I ask the more important question: “What two or three specific behaviors or actions must you execute to have a good game?”

That shifts their attention from feelings to actions. Behaviors and actions influence outcomes. Feelings do not.

Whether you are delivering a speech, making a sales call, or playing for 90 minutes, performance is not primarily about how you feel. It is about whether you commit to the necessary behaviors.

During a game, feelings become mental signals to notice. I may notice that I feel tired, nervous, or frustrated about a mistake. However, focusing on the past or fearing the future removes me from the present moment.

Where is the game being played? Right here and now.

Where is the ball? Where do I need to be? What was my focus today?

That returns me to action: next ball, next play, next interaction, next conversation. Whatever I am doing, I remain with the current task and the behaviors that will make it successful.

Michael Balchan | 00:48:08

You have worked with athletes across many sports, organizations, leaders, and teams. There must be principles that transfer across these domains.

What elite mindsets and behaviors help strong teams and cultures perform, both on and off the field?

Travis Thomas | 00:48:56

I am in my sixth season with the St. Louis University men’s soccer team. We have spent those seasons developing leadership skills, culture, behaviors, and mindset practices.

Before last season, Coach Kevin Kalish suggested creating four clear mindset mantras that the team could reinforce repeatedly.

We developed four ideas that could work with almost any team or environment.

The first is: Be present.

Performance always happens in the present, so presence must be the starting point. We practice mindfulness and continually return to the question, “What is our task today?”

The second is: Make the complex simple.

Each day, we encounter hundreds or thousands of things that could demand our attention, but we control very few of them. Brené Brown says, “Clear is kind.” Clarity gives us hope, peace, and a sense of autonomy.

We simplify the complexity by focusing on what we can control: our attitude, our effort, and our response.

Sometimes an automatic or triggered response appears before we can stop it. We can notice it and then control our response to that response. We can pause and return to neutral.

The third mantra is: We first.

Regardless of what is happening, we put the team first.

If I am having a bad day but buy coffee for the stranger behind me, I can improve someone else’s day. By improving that person’s day, I may also improve my own.

When people struggle, they often turn inward. They ruminate, adopt a victim mindset, lower their heads, and think about how difficult their lives are.

I encourage people to go external rather than internal. Lift your head and look around. Find something to appreciate. Ask how you can connect with or help another person.

The fourth mantra is: Embrace adversity.

Adversity is not something to avoid. It is necessary for greatness and growth. Comfort is not the goal. Growth is.

The person at the top of the mountain did not fall there.

We can resist adversity, struggle reluctantly through it, or embrace it. Athletes sometimes smile before high-pressure moments because smiling signals to the brain that they will be okay.

Billie Jean King’s phrase “Pressure is a privilege” appears outside the U.S. Open. We can view pressure as a privilege or a hindrance. We can see adversity as an inconvenience or recognize, as Ryan Holiday says, that the obstacle is the way.

Great individuals and teams accept what they are facing and respond immediately. They solve problems and continue working.

In improvisation, my goal is to make my partner look brilliant. My partner’s goal is to make me look brilliant. If everyone is trying to make themselves look brilliant, collaboration will be limited. If we are trying to make one another look brilliant, we must listen and build upon each other’s ideas.

A leader’s job is to access the collective brilliance of the group. A more diverse team produces more diverse solutions. The room is smarter than the individual, and the team is more talented than any one person.

Michael Balchan | 00:58:08

The four mantras are: be present, make the complex simple, adopt a “we first” mentality, and embrace adversity.

You have also emphasized behavior. It is easy to state these ideas, but how do mission, vision, and values translate into observable behavior?

If an organization already has its mission, vision, and values displayed, what do those principles look like in practice? How can ongoing behavior provide a feedback loop for refining what is appropriate?

Travis Thomas | 00:59:33

Mission, vision, and values provide the organization’s foundation and scaffolding. Those may remain stable, but the group of people within the organization continually changes.

Behaviors can adapt to express and represent the enduring mission, vision, and values. The behaviors an organization needs today may differ from those it needed two or five years ago.

Sports teams and organizations are living systems. When people are involved, the system adapts and changes every day. Mission, vision, and values may remain static, but behavior can remain flexible.

At the beginning of every season, I tell the soccer players to look around the room. That exact team will never exist again. The program may maintain the same mission, vision, and values, but that collection of people will never take the journey together again.

We must identify behaviors that work for this particular group while representing our shared principles.

The St. Louis University team has three pillars: character, teamwork, and fighting spirit. With the national team under Gregg Berhalter, our three core values were brave, diverse, and relentless.

Those are good words, but words displayed on a wall accomplish nothing until they become behavior.

Every time I meet with the soccer team, I ask which teammates demonstrated character during the previous week. The players identify the specific behaviors they observed.

Then I ask who was a great teammate and why. Finally, we discuss how the team demonstrated fighting spirit.

The players recognize and celebrate one another based on observable behavior.

Leaders and managers can do the same. If integrity is a value, what would it look like in every meeting and activity?

An organization may claim to value collaboration while allowing one leader to dictate every meeting. If collaboration is important, how should it appear in meetings, the physical environment, and everyday work?

When we translate values into behavior, we may discover that our present methods interfere with living those values. Behaviors can change because they must respond to the needs of the moment while expressing principles that remain consistent.

Michael Balchan | 01:06:17

That is a “Yes, and” approach. We retain what is immutable while adapting what is dynamic.

We can ask whether our behavior aligns with what we said we valued. If it does not, we change it. Peers can then celebrate each other for demonstrating the desired behavior.

I coach my daughter’s under-ten soccer team. One of our investors once advised me to coach my children’s sports teams because it would allow me to spend time with them, observe their peers, and influence how they show up.

Many important mentors in our lives were childhood sports coaches.

He gave me three criteria, which I adopted:

Did you do your best?

Did you have fun?

Were you a good sport?

Those overlap with fighting spirit, enjoyment, and teamwork.

Travis Thomas | 01:07:40

Much of it comes back to intentionality. Asking players to identify behaviors requires them to think intentionally about what they are trying to achieve.

If we consistently discuss doing our best, having fun, and being a good sport, those expectations become simple and intentional.

Great cultures operate like a car wash. A person may enter that culture for one season, several seasons, six months, or ten years. Every day, they are surrounded by an intentional way of doing things.

I ask coaches and leaders how they want people to feel when they eventually leave the program.

They might say they want people to feel valued, challenged, and capable of overcoming obstacles.

That is the intended outcome. We then work backward. If that is how we want people to feel at the end, what must we do every day to create that experience?

We must clearly identify the outcome and then invest our energy in the daily behaviors most likely to produce it.

Michael Balchan | 01:09:48

Start with the goal and work backward.

We have people joining us, and we normally create space for coaching. If anything we discussed connects with a personal, professional, individual, or team challenge, this is an opportunity to practice courage over confidence and ask Travis for coaching or feedback.

While people gather their thoughts, where can they connect with you and learn more?

Travis Thomas | 01:10:51

I am accessible through my website, LiveYesAnd.com. The link to my newest book, Confidence Is Overrated, is also available. I am on LinkedIn and Instagram.

If anyone has a follow-up question, I love hearing from people and responding.

I also want to acknowledge the Heroic community. I participated in the first Heroic program and was an early reader of Philosopher’s Notes and the +1s. I remain a fan of everything Heroic represents.

It is an honor to be invited into this community because it is doing transformative work. Thank you for having me.

Michael Balchan | 01:12:09

It has been an absolute joy. Thank you for sharing that.

It was also fun to see the U.S. Men’s National Team continue developing and becoming a bigger part of American culture. The organization has experienced coaching changes, but the energy of teamwork was still visible during the recent tournament.

Travis Thomas | 01:12:57

I still have relationships with and work with a few players who continue to receive call-ups.

I had a dream last night that I was invited back to the national team. I do not know what that means, but perhaps the seeds are being planted.

Michael Balchan | 01:13:43

Hans, I see that you have something. Let’s spotlight you. Take it away.

Hans | 01:13:53

Thank you. This has been great, Travis. I also bought the book while listening.

This question is for me and for a friend, meaning my son.

My son is in business school and leads the MBA committee. He could not find a finance job, so he worked as a wildland firefighter in South Dakota this summer and loved it.

He is entering his final year and wondering whether he really wants to sit behind a desk and work in finance or create something for himself.

I am in a similar position, except I am 68. I have lived in the Mississippi Delta for four years and am heading north, where I must decide whether to take a job or create something myself.

You mentioned courage over confidence. How do you help someone distinguish between the discomfort that signals growth and the discomfort that signals they are moving in the wrong direction?

Travis Thomas | 01:14:51

That is a great question. I wish there were an easy answer.

When younger people ask me for career advice or help choosing between opportunities, I do not make the decision for them. I ask, “Which option excites you more?”

If you are excited about what you are doing, you are more likely to wake up and enjoy the opportunity. I have met people who make a great deal of money and are miserable. I have also met people who do not make much money but are on fire because they wake up with purpose and fulfillment.

The first question is, “Which opportunity excites you more?”

The second idea comes from my experience at IMG Academy. I worked there for almost three years, approximately 12 years ago.

Before accepting the position, a friend who worked there warned me that the internal culture was unhealthy. He said the organization burned people out and churned through them.

However, during the interview, I could see the opportunity’s potential for my development. I did not particularly want the job because I knew it would be difficult.

During a listening call, a friend asked, “If you accepted the job and realized one week later that it was the wrong fit, would you have the courage to walk away?”

I said I believed I would.

She responded, “Then what are you afraid of?”

We make decisions using the best information available today. A year later, we may discover that we did not have the complete picture. The opportunity may be worse than expected, better than imagined, or lead to something we never anticipated.

The decision I make today creates my next reality.

Do I trust myself, my integrity, and my courage enough to respond to wherever that decision takes me?

If I do, I do not need to place pressure on myself to make a perfect decision. I can trust myself to adapt when new information appears.

Hans | 01:18:36

I love that. Thank you.

Travis Thomas | 01:18:45

Thank you, Hans.

I eventually found the courage to leave IMG after almost three years. I left with gratitude rather than bitterness.

One morning, I looked at my wife and said, “I think it is time.”

She had known for months and was ready.

Our family mantra is an African proverb: “Leap and the net will appear.” My wife painted it on a canvas.

The net sometimes feels like rocks, but it is often exactly what we need.

I told her it was time for us to leap again, and she said, “Let’s do it.”

Michael Balchan | 01:19:59

That is beautiful.

We describe confidence as intense trust that, regardless of what happens, you will make the next appropriate decision.

It is not confidence that the current decision will work perfectly. It is trusting that you will have the courage to respond to the new reality your action creates.

You take reality as it is, choose an action that creates a new reality, and then accept that new reality too.

Travis Thomas | 01:20:29

Exactly.

I made that leap, and my wife was working part-time for a website. We thought her income would help us get by.

A few weeks after I resigned, she was let go.

It became, “All right. Here we go.”

I always say that I have never not been taken care of because I am still here. We are all still here.

Every person on this call has made it through every previous challenge. We have been terrified, and some of the things we feared may have happened, but we are still going.

I have to trust that I will also be able to face the next adversity that comes my way.

Michael Balchan | 01:21:30

How do we know reality is happening the way it should be?

Travis Thomas | 01:21:34

Because this is what is happening.

Michael Balchan | 01:21:36

Because it is.

One final question: What is one thing we can do as individuals and as a community to spread positive ripples and help create a future you would like to see?

Travis Thomas | 01:22:00

That is a great question.

I genuinely love this work. I love bringing “Yes, and” into environments where people may not have considered it before, including corporations and sports.

Several years ago, a friend who was a school superintendent in Michigan invited me to begin a meeting between the school administration and the union board. It was a contentious relationship, and the room was clearly divided.

He asked me to lead “Yes, and” activities before their meeting. I led approximately 30 minutes of activities, including an empathy exercise, and then left. They remained together for eight hours.

Later, the superintendent told me it was the best meeting they had ever held.

Whenever the discussion became contentious, someone would pause and say, “You are not ‘Yes, anding’ me right now.”

That broke the tension and encouraged everyone to listen more carefully.

I had never imagined that “Yes, and” could help in that particular setting.

I do not have a major request. If you know anyone or any organization that could benefit from “Yes, and,” please connect us. I would love to help.

If anyone knows people in Washington, we could use some “Yes, and” there too. I am waiting for an opportunity to bring this work to Washington.

Michael Balchan | 01:23:57

My wife is a peacebuilder who works for a peacebuilding organization, so she is already doing that work.

I appreciate you. Your energy, wisdom, and distinctions have been amazing. I am fired up about everything you are doing and excited to see what happens in the days, weeks, months, and decades ahead.

Thank you for your time. Thank you to everyone who joined us and everyone who watches the replay.

Day one. We are all in. Let’s go.

Travis Thomas | 01:24:31

Thank you, everyone. Have a great day. It was so good seeing you again, Michael. Take care, Heroic community.